How to Use Horse Sense for Healing and Personal Growth Pt 2 Ep 146 | Carmen Theobald

 In this episode of Evolving Humans, host Julia Marie continues her conversation with Carmen Theobald, an expert in equine-facilitated healing and spiritual growth.

Carmen discusses the unregulated nature of the field and emphasizes the importance of choosing experienced facilitators and trusting one's intuition when selecting a program.

She explains the various types of healing work with horses, highlighting the significance of consent-based interactions and the unique, transformative experiences horses can offer.

Carmen shares compelling client stories, illustrating how horses can help individuals reconnect with their bodies, set boundaries, and find balance. She also touches on the benefits of group workshops and leadership development programs that incorporate horse-inspired tools.

The episode concludes with Carmen offering a free gift to the audience: access to guided visualizations from her online course, Beyond Self-Care.

Resources:

Many thanks to Pixabay's Relaxing Time for the music beds for this episode:
Healing Sounds 124056 and Music Vol 12 131317

Carmen's Website

Carmen's FREE GIFT: I can give away a series of 5 recorded visualizations that are part of our self-guided online course called Beyond Self-Care, a horse-inspired approach to self-leadership and wellness. 

https://horsesensenorth.com/guided-visualizations-5-roles 
Password: PREVIEW-5

Thank you for listening to Evolving Humans!

For consultations or classes, please visit my website: www.JuliaMarie.us

Evolving Humans with Julia Marie is now on YouTube, and will offer more than the podcast episodes there, so give us a "SUBSCRIBE"!

https://www.youtube.com/@EvolvingHumans731

You can find my book, Signals from My Soul: A Spiritual Memoir of Awakening here:

https://tinyurl.com/Book-Signals-from-My-Soul

Transcript

This transcript was generated using ai and therefore may contain some errors.
Julia Marie (00:00):
There are many ways you can work with horses for spiritual growth and healing. In part two of my conversation with Carmen Theobald, she shares some horse stories that will astound you and you'll want to stay tuned because Carmen has a free gift for the evolving humans audience. And now the rest of the
conversation. Welcome to Evolving Humans, the podcast for Awakening Souls. I'm your host, Julia Marie. Settle in and get ready for another spirited conversation. So if I want to explore this, what are some of the things I need to look for in order to make that best safe choice?
Carmen Theobald (01:06):
So one of the things that I'll say about this kind of work with horses, and this is the downside in a way, is that it is an unregulated field. And so technically someone can do a weekend workshop and then go hang out a shingle, and that can make it risky. And I like to talk about that because I think it's important for
people to know that. And when they are looking into options, looking at things like the experience level of the facilitator and of the facility, perhaps recommendations from others who have experienced something positive there. Looking at the experience not, and professionalism not only for working with
people, maybe it's a therapist that they're working with, whether it's an experienced coach looking at the human experience level, but also looking at how much experience they have with the horses. And it's not
that everyone who needs to do this work well has to have thousands of horses in the repertoire like I am.
(02:02):
I'm not saying that, but there is a big difference between working with someone who has enough horse experience to make it safe and really understand the horse partner just as much as supporting the human partner versus not. So maybe avoid the person who's just worked with their one horse in their backyard.
Probably not the best option, but there are definitely places out there that have that combination of experience for horses and humans, maybe those references. And back to that trust your gut feeling because you may have all the boxes ticked on your list of things to kind of check out in advance and you
arrive to the facility and it's not about your own anxiety. Ask yourself the question, is this my own anxiety and vulnerability, or am I actually sensing the energy of this place? Is there actually an energy that my spidey senses are picking up that the horses are unhappy, the people are unhappy, that there's a toxic
energy, even if it's really well hidden or it's not right? Maybe it's just not alignment. So allow those spidey senses to be just as important part of conversation, if not the most important part. Then they kind of tick boxes of what I'm looking for in a professional context.
Julia Marie (03:22):
What are some of the kinds of healing work that I can do with horses that are out there?
Carmen Theobald (03:33):
Just like there are many different kinds of therapists and therapy. There's many different kinds of equine facilitated, equine assisted work. There's many acronyms in the field for it. I don't think that there's necessarily one that's better than the others as long as the horses are truly partners in the work. And it's
just going to depend on what sits well for you. So there are some modalities and practitioners who really use the horses, and I'm using that language on purpose, use the horses more like a tool instead of working with them as a partner. And that's a big piece because we want that consent based relationship not only in
our human interactions, but in our horse interactions. So for example, here, when we work with the horses, not only are they at liberty during horse sessions, meaning they don't have any halters on no lead rope.
(04:26):
So it's not like we're just toting them around an obstacle course or something like that. Although there can be value in learning how to do that too, not seeing totally not good for that. But it is important to us that they really have their full voice and choice in how they're interacting with everyone. Ourselves included,
not just clients. It's also important that our horses are volunteering for clients. So as a client comes to the farm, they may see the horses and go, oh, I'm really connected to that horse. Can I work with them? And they may end up working with that horse if the horse chooses it's them, but we don't have anyone say,
today you're working because we want it to be a choice from them. And there's a lot of intention that the horses carry around, Ooh, I have something to teach this client and I have the energy to share something with this person today, and I'd have the desire.
(05:13):
And so there's all of those things that the horses coordinate within the herd. And there's always someone, at least one horse who shows up as an eager volunteer. So looking for those consent based interactions, no matter what modality we're looking into, and again, what feels right to you, you might try a certain
location and go, oh wow, I learned so much and that felt great. And you might try a certain location and go, I really enjoyed being with the horses. And I think that was okay, but something doesn't feel right and I can't put language to it and I can't put my finger to it, but just something doesn't feel right. Listen to that,
try somewhere else. It's fine.
Julia Marie (05:55):
I'm inspired to try this for myself. What would it look like if I came for a session or a workshop? Let's start with that. And then what would I anticipate if I'm coming just for a private session?
Carmen Theobald (06:10):
Sure. So I can only speak really from our modality and what we're offering here at Horse Sense North because again, everywhere's going to be a little different. So for individual sessions, they tend to be two hours in length, and the first half is really human to human, a little bit of conversation, getting to know
each other as well as some horse inspired tools that we get to practice around how are we regulating ourselves, how are we viewing the world? And also some preparation for our time with the horses so that we're really learning to see life a little bit more through their eyes. That's going to allow us to be really
open to what the experience is with the horses at a much deeper level. And also tools that help us get more into our body. So there's quite an element of somatic and embodied work in what we're doing, meaning things that help us connect to what our physical sensations are, having our body become really a
part of the conversation, not just our brain.
(07:11):
And inviting that to be kind of a through line throughout our time. So that would be a two hour session where the first part is human to human. The second part would be with the horses. And then we're debriefing that horse experience with a little bit of invitation of how might we apply what was just
experienced? How might you apply that to your human life? And so there's always this bridge building that gets created for not only between the worlds of horses and humans that bridge, but then the bridge from our horse experiences back into our human world, a group workshop. We only have very small
groups here because I really value the aspect of keeping it a very tight, small circle. So we have a maximum of five people, five participants in a workshop. And that also allows for enough horse time for everyone where we don't have to sit around for too long and we really all get to experience the horse work
together collaboratively.
(08:09):
So even though we're experiencing it together, individuals are still having their one-on-one time with the horse, but the group will have a chance to watch that horse experience and watch each other's. And very often people will say that they learn just as much if not more from watching other people's horse
experiences as they did their own time with the horse. And so group work can be incredibly powerful and beautiful and deeply transformative and moving because not only we are getting all of these variations of what the horse medicine, if you will, can look like and feel like, but we're also being invited to connect
with people without any kind of forced intimacy. But really just allowing the conversation to flow intentionally, not bring up trauma talk. I will say that for our workshops, people who they don't have to be worried about coming and needing to bear their soul about some terrible thing that happened.
(09:04):
In fact, we ask people not to because it can be very dysregulating. It's really about what's happening right now, what's happening for us in this moment? What's happening with the horse, and what can we learn from that? How can we grow from that? When we get to have those conversations as a group, as a
collective, it can be so validating, so freeing and just really, really meaningful and heart medicine. So the setup for those days, whether it's a one day or multiple day workshop is similar. The mornings we have human to human. My partner who's a chef and caterer, he feeds us farm to table lunches that are delicious
and nutritious. And then in the afternoon we spend it with the horses. And so we have that kind of flow that takes place and it's just my favorite work to do in the whole wired
Julia Marie (09:52):
World. Sounds like you and the work were a match made in heaven. What are some of the benefits? My takeaway so far is the moving beyond polarity and embracing the paradox. It's not an either or kind of a thing. It's both. And it's both of these things, which I do believe is the point of the evolutionary stage that
we're going through now is moving beyond polarity to a place of people say unity all the time, but it's actually a little, well, let's embrace the paradox. So you've framed that perfectly in my head. I'm having aha moments here as you're talking. What are some of the other benefits that I, selfishly as a person that
am looking for my spiritual growth, what are the things that I can take away from an experience with the horses?
Carmen Theobald (10:52):
I think it's going to really depend on the person,
(10:57):
And this is going to sound maybe a little generic and woowoo and almost like too good to be true. But what I keep seeing over and over again is that if we were to simplify to bare bones what it means to be kind of in our most harmonious whole self and what it means not to be, it's really kind of are we swinging
to one side of the pendulum or the other? Are we giving our power away? Are we overusing our power? It kind of simply comes down to that, lots of different expressions of that. But ultimately that's what it's, and
are we able to really, again, that paradox of be in our heart and have that ground of strength? So when we're not embracing that paradox, when we're kind of swinging to one side of that pendulum or other, all those challenges that go with it are going to be present.
(11:55):
And what I see over and over with the horses is that they just find a way to bring us more into balance.
And whether that's, and it's going to look so different from one person to the next. That's why it's really neat to have the group workshops because they'll see the same horse. Sometimes same horse might work with two or three people in the same day. They might work with one. We let them decide. But if we are
seeing those back-to-back experiences, the same horse is going to show up in a way, perhaps with that person who's a little bit more likely to people place a little bit less comfortable with boundaries, a little bit more likely to be giving their power away in whatever way, even if it's not obvious. Sometimes with
people, we may have all of the outward things, we have it all together, but inside we're like, we feel really small.
(12:45):
And so the horse is going to respond to that person very differently depending on what they need. Some people just need such deep compassion and love, and I see that horse giving that to them. And sometimes I see the horse going, yeah, I'm holding compassion and love for you, and I'm not judging you for it, but
I'm going to intentionally poke at you to try to shift something in you. And to create that shift, I'm going to be safely pushy because our horses have learned really safe ways of doing this work. But they're going to kind of test the person a little bit to say, you ready to set a boundary, yet you're going to step into your
power yet? Come on. How about now? And they give them opportunities to actually practice stepping into their power in a healthy way, safe way, but a way that might feel very uncomfortable, but is deeply important and necessary for transformation.
(13:46):
The next person who goes in, maybe they're a person who is really disconnected from their body. Maybe they're really almost like their spirit is so not in their body that they don't feel like anybody's really home.
They're going through the motions of life, but they're just not really there. That same horse is going to respond very differently to them. And again, depending on the individual need, it's like they just have the
codes to find the direct path to the heart of what's most needed. And so for someone like that, maybe the horse is going to be standing off to the side and just waiting for the person to allow themselves to come
into the present moment slowly. Maybe even quickly, can I share a quick client story about that in particular?
Julia Marie (14:36):
Yes. Because that was going to be my next question. Can you share some stories, some examples? So we're definitely on the same page. Go ahead.
Carmen Theobald (14:45):
Perfect. So we had a client show up who this person expressed. They had a lot of trauma in their background. We didn't go into the story, it's not about the story of it, but nonetheless, it was important for us to know that. And this person had a very productive life, and according to society's views, and ticked a
lot of those boxes, but was very miserable and felt depressed, but beyond depressed in that place where a shell of a human, and there were parts of her that were sort of talking about this, but parts of her that were
also a little bit in denial of that, well, yeah, but I do all these things so hard for her to really navigate that feeling. Fair enough. And so that's not my job to make sense for her. I really like it. That's where the horses come in. So she starts to have this session with this horse, and this horse's name is Dr. Quinn, and
we gave him the Dr title when he arrived because he is so deserving of it. If anyone knows the show, Dr. Quinn, medicine Woman, he is Dr. Quinn Medicine horse.
(15:55):
So the good doctor, as we love to say, he comes on over and he just moments ago, had actually worked with a person where he had lots of energy. He was kind of very enthusiastic. And then this person walks into the ring, she's the next one up, and it's like he instantly goes to sleep and he's just standing there. It
doesn't matter how close or how far away she gets, he's just, he literally closed his eyes. And if he could have been snoring, he would've been, bottom lip is drooping. And he just goes into this almost trance state, and this person is starting to get very anxious and vocalizes, I don't think he likes me. I don't think
he wants to be here anymore. And I said, okay, well, let's imagine that another possibility is that he really has something important to share. Because remember, he chose to be here.
(16:49):
He volunteered. He made it obvious, and he didn't want to leave between clients, so he was ready for you. So if this could mean something, if he's reflecting something back, what would that be? And she said she thought about it. She's like, well, I guess this is actually how I feel a lot of the time. I was like, yeah. So
what are some options? What might you want to do with that information? And one of the options was that it's okay to feel tired that resting together is safe and okay, because so often that productivity wheel of society keeps us overriding our needs. And no wonder we end up in these states of extreme exhaustion.
But another element, another option is that it's beyond the physical exhaustion piece and just being tired together, which is valid and fair, but there's this other part of her spirit not really being in her body.
(17:47):
And so talked about that. And during this whole conversation, Dr. Quinn is still eyes closed, occasionally opening them a slit and then closing them back. And I said, well, okay, well, what if you invited in this moment, gave yourself permission to really breathe in your spirit from a grounded place and open up and
breathe it in from above and really draw yourself in, draw yourself back into your body. Just see what happens. If it doesn't work, that's fine, but this is a moment to try and explore and just see what happens. I don't know if I can do that. I was like, okay, whatever you want to do, but if you want to try, you can.
Okay, I'll try. And so she takes a minute and she practices some of the tools that we had done before going into our horse time, and she really intentionally opens up more of her internal space and intentionally brings in more of herself.
(18:49):
And as she's doing this, Dr. Quinn suddenly jolts awake, and as she continues to do this, he really comes alive again and looks at her with this enthusiastic like, oh, hello. She hasn't done any physical movements other than this deep, meaningful inner work, which is where it's all at. And he's responding in such an
overtly physical way. And now she's starting to laugh, and he comes over to her and he's nuzzling her, and he's putting his mouth all over her face and kind of tickling her neck and licking her and just right up close in this very loving, joyful way. And she's laughing and she's crying, and she's just having this
moment of blissful healing of coming back into her body where Dr. Quinn just allowed that to be okay for her to be that way. But he was just going to show her what was happening inside, and he was going to show her what was happening when she allowed this process to take place. And I'll say, support that too,
because there's energetic healing, there's spiritual healing that the horses are doing that I don't have any measurements to prove, but I know are happening, and I keep seeing it over and over again. So he really facilitated this incredible transformation where she walked out of that pen, that round pen and said she
hadn't felt so alive since she was a small person.
(20:32):
Wow,
Julia Marie (20:38):
What a gift. And you got to be present to witness that.
Carmen Theobald (20:48):
Yeah, I feel like I have the most privileged job in the whole world, and really, I'm just doing my best to be a student of the horses and allow them to do their job
Julia Marie (21:03):
Well. I'm starting to see them as in a slightly different light, more along the lines of powerful healers. If we let them allow it, yeah, they're happy to facilitate. Yeah, that's a good story. Do you have maybe one more that you could tell?
Carmen Theobald (21:27):
Absolutely. I have so many.
Julia Marie (21:30):
Give me another one that was a good story.
Carmen Theobald (21:33):
So Grace is a horse that I had mentioned earlier, my first horse who charged me. And I never thought she would be safe for other people to work with, but she really was. Now, grace grew up in the RCMP musical Ride, which is the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and they have a program that is, it seems all
beautiful on the outside, but the reality unfortunately is that the horses there are highly, it can be a very highly abusive environment. And it was actually exposed as such in a very evidence-based way on news stations several years ago. This is the program that she came from.
(22:20):
I'm sharing that piece because it's important to note that a lot of our work that we do is with first responders and military. When we ran our first group specifically for this population, grace had already been stepping into her role as a teacher and healer and guide for people during these client sessions. And that was already going beautifully and just blown away by her every moment. She was really like a
matriarch, her soul, her spirit. And she really, she's no longer with us, but she was with us for almost a decade, and she truly has that matriarchal energy of looking out for all the herd members, horses and humans. And she brought that energy into client sessions in such powerful ways, almost like that strict
grandmother who loves you fiercely not going to let you get away with anything, but in a way that feels really good.
(23:15):
And that was her. But when we ran our first program specifically for the first one was for police. I was very aware that this particular kind of energy that's a full group, not just one first responder or military person or police officer part of another group, but it was only this kind of energy that could really activate
her and bring her back to some of her traumatic experiences. Well, lo and behold, she insisted that she wanted to work with this group of people more than anyone else who would ever come to the farm. I had to actually put limits on how much she was working. I didn't want her to burn herself out because she
wanted to do every single person, every single experience. And the other herd members were also saying, I have things. And so I was like, okay, we will have you work with most of them, but little breaks, little breaks grace. So I'm sharing all that lead up because it makes this next part of the story, I think that much
more important where one of the officers who she worked with when she showed up to the group, this person self describes her heart as black and not beating, having no feeling anymore.
(24:35):
And grace comes into the ring. She is really behaving differently than normal. My super steady, confident horse is trotting around, very concerned, but wasn't that way coming to the ring at all, volunteered to come happy to come, gets into the arena, and now she is appearing from all the horse behavior view from
that lens, like a horse who's very stressed and wants to go back to the field. But I knew there was something else that was going on, and I didn't know really this person's story, but Grace kept looking at this person, kept looking at this person, kept looking at this person. And so I went in with Grace, and I did
some things to help her settle and feel a little bit more grounded into the environment, which did help. But I knew that there was more to the story, and the person ended up working with Grace.
(25:38):
Once Grace got to a point that was safe, and I kind of debated and I actually considered should I bring her back? Because safety is always our number one priority for clients. I would never put anyone in a position
that I was concerned at all, and I felt like there was something else really going on. So I allowed Grace to kind of settle down, but she was still a little bit more on alert than usual, but I'm going to reframe the language now and say that she was moving a lot of energy on purpose, and this person comes into the ring
and has a really deeply impactful experience where she describes it as Grace got her heart beating again.
(26:25):
And I believe from my lens is almost like those paddles to give an electric shock to a heart that stopped, that that's what Grace was doing at an energetic level, that she had to come in with such oomph and gusto what it was going to take to shock this person back to life. And that's exactly what happened. And I am
grateful that I actually get to have a lot of follow up with this individual and hear a lot about their story and their life after this experience and many others with grace. And she's a completely different person today than she was a couple of years ago, but it wouldn't have gone that direction if that initial energetic
shock back to life wasn't the end point to get things going again.
Julia Marie (27:20):
Okay. Another while, I don't want to take your whole day. I mean, I could continue talking to, and maybe I'll have to have you back when you write your book. So is there any question I didn't ask you about your work that you wish I had?
Carmen Theobald (27:45):
No. I mean, I can share about my work in so many different angles and lenses forever, but I really appreciate our conversation, Julia. I guess the other thing I would mention is that we do quite a bit of
leadership development work as well, as well as the trauma recovery and personal growth. And I see leadership development really as a part of that, as our personal growth and trauma recovery as well. But that we do work with a lot of organizations and teams for that. And I'm saying it not just because I want
people to know that on a business level, but for horses that they're really inviting us to become better leaders for ourselves because we really can't lead others. We can't lead horses, we can't lead anyone without stepping into leadership for the self. And so I feel like they're teaching us, healing us, guiding us
of what does it actually mean to lead in a way that directs us to more health, more empowerment, more connectivity, more wholeness, more aliveness. So I wanted to share that not only for our work, but as an invitation to listeners that just whether you have access to horses or not, to just consider that in every
moment, every choice point, whether it's that dream or that moment of the school shooting or the tiniest moments of how we're waking up in the day and how we start the day and our conversation that we have with someone. What are the choices that we do have and how can we choose to be a leader for ourselves
in each one of those choices?
Julia Marie (29:27):
Well, just to follow up then, if I have a business with employees and I want to do something to improve that environment, what would a workshop experience look like?
Carmen Theobald (29:44):
Sure. So the fun part is that I get to also share some horse sense, if you will, without the horses directly being there. So I do quite a bit of presenting and workshop facilitation, whether it's online or in person, to larger groups going into people's organizations to bring some of that horse sense that sometimes gets
followed up with direct horse contact, and that's the best, but it can also be really impactful and transformative, just kind of bringing in some of the horse inspired frameworks and tools to start to shift some of our lens, to start to shift some of the way that we're showing up for self and others. I think it's a
really accessible and neat way to consider leadership training or professional development that's outside the box. And that ultimately is really just bringing us closer to that place of wholeness within the self, the
team within the organization.
Julia Marie (30:42):
Okay. So two books.
Carmen Theobald (30:46):
I appreciate the invitations to that.
Julia Marie (30:52):
Well, I suspected this was going to be an insight filled conversation and it was. So I want to thank you for every little bit of it. Before we come to the end of our conversation, I like to ask five questions of my guest. Are you ready? I'm ready. Okay. Three words to describe yourself.
Carmen Theobald (31:16):
I'm going to cheat a little bit, but also because it's really true. I describe horse sense in three words. I kind of humanize it with these three words of clarity, connection, and courage. And I feel like that is when I'm
in my healthiest place, the three words that I would use for me.
Julia Marie (31:34):
Okay. Three words to describe your spiritual journey. Difficult, beautiful, and
Carmen Theobald (31:45):
Empowering.
Julia Marie (31:47):
I like that. What has been your greatest spiritual lesson?
Carmen Theobald (31:56):
My greatest spiritual lesson has been that the paradox is the most important concept to embrace.
Julia Marie (32:08):
Yeah, that's my takeaway from our conversation is embrace the paradox, really. Yeah. What is your concept of higher wisdom or God?
Carmen Theobald (32:21):
For me, I feel that I'm a very spiritual person. I feel very connected to a universal consciousness, energy, harmonious interconnectedness, and I don't have a one all-knowing, being that I associate to that. I feel like it's connected to all of us alive and embodied and not embodied at all times, all at once.
Julia Marie (32:56):
I call it the cosmic super glue that holds everything together, of which I am a part. Yes, that. That's it. Perfect. Thank you. What is the final message that you have for the Evolving Humans community?
Carmen Theobald (33:16):
Final message that I would want to share is that no matter where we are in our journey, no matter how difficult it might seem or really be right now, that it doesn't have to stay there. And even when it seems like healing and transformation and hope are almost totally lost and out of reach, but they're still there and
it's still accessible and not to give up.
Julia Marie (33:52):
Beautifully said. I love all of your answers. And now before we close, please tell the people how they can connect with you and share that free gift you have for the Evolving Humans audience. I'll make sure the links are in the show notes.
Carmen Theobald (34:10):
Perfect. So I have an online course called Beyond Self-Care, and it's really a horse inspired approach to leader ourselves to wellness. And within that course, there are five modules, five different roles of self- leadership, if you will, and they all go along with a guided visualization where I came up with a
visualization specific to the role to kind of invite us into embodying and experiencing that particular role in a healthy way. And so I took those visualizations out of the course and made them free for you. And so Julia will have a link and the password to access that in the show notes, and I hope that it serves you in
whatever way it's meant to.
Julia Marie (34:57):
Thank you so much. Well, that's our time for today. To each one who's listening, thank you for continuing to support this podcast. If you found value in this episode, please share it with two other people so that
together we can bring more light to this world. If you want to leave a message for the show, a suggestion for a topic you want to know more about, or a question you'd like me to answer, please just click the link in the show notes below and leave me a text. I can't wait to hear from you. And now here's a quote for you
to ponder as you go about your day. Horses are angels with hooves sent to Earth to teach us about love, trust, and patience. Pam Brown.