Find Alignment with the Help of Horses Pt 1 of 2 Ep 145 | Guest: Carmen Theobald

 In this episode, Carmen Theobald, the founder and director of Horse Sense North, discusses the therapeutic and transformative power of horses.

She shares her personal journey of trauma recovery and personal growth, which was significantly influenced by her interactions with horses.

Carmen explains how horses can help individuals embrace paradoxes, balance their energy, and become better leaders for themselves. She also highlights the importance of consent-based interactions with horses and the need for facilitators to have adequate experience with both horses and humans.

Carmen shares powerful stories of individuals who have experienced profound healing and transformation through their interactions with horses.

She emphasizes that horses can serve as mirrors, reflecting our state of balance or imbalance, and can guide us towards greater self-awareness and personal growth.

RESOURCES:

Many thanks to Pixabay's Ambient Piano by Balance Bay 109400 and Nick Panek's 620 Music Bed piano music 218762 for the music beds for this episode.

Carmen's Website

Thank you for listening to Evolving Humans!

For consultations or classes, please visit my website: www.JuliaMarie.us

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You can find my book, Signals from My Soul: A Spiritual Memoir of Awakening here:

https://tinyurl.com/Book-Signals-from-My-Soul

Transcript

This transcript was generated using ai, and therefore may contain some errors.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We're going to talk about using horse sense for healing and personal growth today. Welcome to Evolving Humans, the podcast for Awakening Souls. I'm your host, Julia Marie. Settle in and get ready for another
spirited conversation. Carmen Theobald is the founder and director of Horse Sense North, where they offer personal growth, leadership, team development and trauma recovery. With some horse sense, her
coaching, facilitation and speaking combine her experience working with thousands of horses and people and her own post-traumatic Growth. She is determined to make a positive difference in this fractured
world. Carmen, I want to thank you so much for joining us today on Evolving Humans.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Thank you so much for having me, Julia. It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yeah, it's been a long time, couple years almost since I've had someone on to talk about the magic of working with horses, especially for personal development and trauma recovery. I'm looking forward to you sharing your wisdom with all of us today.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Thank you. I am looking forward to being able to share about it from my perspective anyhow, I really believe that they're some of our greatest teachers for how to be human is looking at how these four-legged
beings are moving through the world and getting some inspiration as well as practice with them.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Before we launch into the topic, I want to learn more about your personal story, and I always ask my guests the same first question, so let's start at the beginning with you. What was it like growing up in Carmen's house?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Growing up in Carmen's house, little me was, it was quite stressful. It was pretty, in some ways traumatic environment, in some ways, very privileged environment. There was a combination of beautiful moments and horrible moments, and there were so many that were really harmful that I always felt like the other
shoe was going to drop. There was a lot of emotional, verbal, psychological abuse, and I also was extremely passionate about animals from the be get go. I found so much solace in how I was able to relate and spend time with dogs and cats, and I really thought I was actually going to become a small animal
veterinarian. That was my goal. I was eight years old and I was so determined. I had my little pamphlet of where I wanted to go to school and I knew the grades I needed to get and I worked toward that and I had
the grades and I had that path all lined up.
(03:09):
And then I got to a certain age and realized that that would also mean being dependent on my family and probably living in their home or having this sense of not being free, being trapped in a cage, trapped in the
school system for a very long time. But more than that trapped to the family dynamics that I was unhealthily exposed to. And I had this panic attack of I can't do this, and I let that dream go completely.
And so I ended up taking completely different courses. I went into Spanish and drama and dropped all my science and math courses that were high level and I let that dream go. And then I ended up finding a way
to go study social services instead, which I didn't really think about the helping humans part of things. I was really just thinking about how to help animals. But I'm really glad I did that. It was very in alignment for me, but it also led to a complete dramatic life-changing event that completely altered the rest of my
life.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
As you're talking about your story, I always like to look at the patterns in our lives early on because they always seem to give clues to what we're going to grow into. So you had a natural affinity for animals in general, and your human limited mind said, well then I'll be this, but your spirit said, no, I don't think I
can live with that. So kudos to you for listening, even if it was unconsciously to that voice within, because you did eventually end up exactly where your soul wanted you to be, and that's the beauty of the experience.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Now, you hinted at your spiritually transformative experience and this opened you up to the world of spirit. I'm going to assume, but could you talk to us about that? Tell us that story
Speaker 2 (05:24):
For sure. So I think this is the right podcast to share a piece that I don't often talk about, which actually
occurred before a significant event in the physical world that we're in. And this is while I was studying social services at Dawson College in Montreal. And I had a dream that was one of the most powerful dreams of my life that I really don't even think was a dream. And I was watching these two conversations
take place to back, and I was like a little fly on a wall, bird's eye view in the corner. And these people were having a discussion, five or six of them, and at every moment in the conversation that there was an option of how they would respond, these choice points in the conversation, it didn't go dramatically in any
direction badly, but that first kind of round of conversation, all those choice points, they all decided to go with the less vulnerable response, the less joyful response, the less connected, enthusiastic, meaningful response.
(06:33):
And so the end of that conversation with this group, and I remember it so vividly, it wasn't that it was like anyone's feelings were majorly hurt or it wasn't like there was an argument that took place, but it was just
kind of left flat. It wasn't bad, but it could have been a lot better. I saw it each moment where it could have been so much better. Then the dream started again and I got to see the same people, same situation,
same conversation, but all the choice points were the opposite where people actually chose to show up really deeply in their heart, really authentically, and the energy and momentum and beauty of the
connection and energy and collaboration between all of them just heightened and heightened and heightened. And then I was popped into what I believe now is the spirit world. And I was an orb with
many other orbs in a white space that was so peaceful and beautiful and I kind of knew everything all at once and I was so at ease and content and I never wanted to leave. And then the worst sounding old school alarm, it woke me up and popped me right out. And it was kind of devastating.
(07:45):
But I, looking back just recently connected that dream to the experience that I'm going to share that happened physically to me at school because I think had I not had that dream just a month or so before this experience, I don't think that my ability to shift gears at that kind of choice point way for myself
would've been possible in the same kind of fashion. So I was studying social services as I mentioned, and
while I was there, there was a school shooting that took place. And I mean there were many things in that day that were kind of miraculous events, if you will, or just feeling like there was so much that was meant
to to make sure that I did survive. For example, it was a six hour long class that I was part of, and the timing of that class was so precise from nine to noon.
(08:46):
Exactly. And then noon to one was lunch. Exactly. And then one to four, that kind of precision except for that day. That day we went to lunch 20 minutes late because we took a vote as a class to have one more presentation, and the presentations were half hour. So we could either go to lunch early or late and we all chose to go to lunch late. And had that not occurred, I would've been in the heart of the worst of the massacre. I'm getting goosebumps. Yeah, that said, I was still stuck in a classroom for 45 minutes hiding
with my classmates listening as the shooter got closer and closer to where we were and a part of me truly believed I was going to die as the fear and panic continued to escalate within the class in a very trying to
be silent kind of way.
(09:46):
But then it started to kind of seep into the deeper stages of panic for people, especially as all the communications went down because on the island of Montreal, it was such a large college and everyone
was trying to reach their loved ones and all the cell phones went out, and that just bumped everyone's panic into a whole new threshold. And it was at that moment that I felt myself facing a choice point, and it's like I kind of tasted or sensed this other path and I didn't even know what it was, but I just knew that if
I didn't kind of shift course and go that way, my fear was going to keep rising with everyone else's to a point where not only was it awful to experience but not beneficial for anyone and including me. And so I
shifted off to that other direction and I got really calm and really grounded, and I've experienced other states of stress and traumatic response of freeze and a little bit dissociative, this kind of thing.
(10:55):
This was not that. This was very much in my body, very authentically, and I just felt this total sense of surrender to the moment of like, okay, this might be the end and I'm okay with that, but also I'm prepared to step into action if I need to. I don't feel like I can't and I will try to live, but if I can't live today, that's
okay. And I was able to sit beside my friends and hold their hands and do some breathing intentionally with them for them. And I just felt really calm. And it turned out that I didn't have to die that day. A group of police officers snuck into our class and silently escorted us to a position of safety outside. And I got outside and I felt the sunshine in my face, and I took a deep breath from that place of feeling really
alive.
(11:55):
And it's not that I had some major, now I can access spirit or channel things that I couldn't before. I'm very much in my body. I'm super glued in here, but it's my deep sense of knowing that was turned up, that
volume dial of what I know to be true, that I've had access to that. Like we talked about, it's what helped me not go into veterinary medicine, but it really turned up the dial on my true authentic self. And it turned down the volume dial on all the doubts and pressures and expectations of life, of society, of family, of me.
And it shifted how I was able to make every decision moving forward.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
I just want people to take a moment and breathe in the power of being present because that's what you're describing for that instant, that moment in time you were your soul was fully embodied. Now that would
be my interpretation of your experience, but you had a glimpse at your human level of what it feels like to be fully embodied as your soul. That sounds right. It feels right. Yeah. I could feel it when you were talking, and I say to people all the time, the power is not out there, it's inside. The answers aren't out there,
they're inside. We just have to surrender to that part of us that animates us, that knows who we are and why we've come and surrender to that. Thank you for sharing that. That is more than just a transformative story for you personally. Feels to me like it's got the power to transform other people as well. And that's
truly
Speaker 2 (14:28):
My hope in sharing it. So what happened after that experience with the school shooting is that I continued to make decisions in life in little ways and then eventually in bigger ways that completely took me off of
what I thought was be my educational path. Although I had left my veterinary medicine dreams behind, I did really value having a degree from some kind of higher level educational institution. And what I realized was that feeling of being trapped that prevented me from following my dreams of being a
veterinarian were still there. And that the feeling of being in a classroom, not because of the school shooting, but the feeling of being locked into a life where I felt like a caged animal at home in the world, I had to do something else and I didn't want to wait any longer. I didn't want to wait until I had checked off
the boxes of a society's view of what that could mean, that then I could make choices to follow up different career path or a path less traveled.
(15:47):
It was like, no, this is my life now. I don't know how much life I have left. And I'm not making this from a fear-based place, just a factual place of I don't know how much life I have left and I'm alive right now, so I'm going to make choices that feel the most alive to me right now. And so I left school, I left home, I
left Montreal and I went to volunteer on a farm in exchange for room and board. And this farm had vegetable gardens, maple syrup production, which were all beautiful and I enjoyed. But the real reason I went is because there were 24 horses and I was so called to be with them by just reading the little
description of the farm at the time, it wasn't online, it was still in a booklet, it was a wooer, this program where you can just pick a farm and work it out with them directly in exchange for room and board.
(16:42):
And they talked about the horses and I was like, I have to go there. And the first night that I was at the farm, I heard all of these horses chewing surround sound. I was there at dinnertime in the barn. And that noise of them eating and being in their environment and smelling every smell of them, it infused my cells
in this really incredible way. And I knew that I could never really go back to a life without them. I maybe wouldn't have put it in words like that at the time, but my body knew. And looking back, I can sense that
very strongly. What's interesting for me at least to share in this moment about the farm is that a lot of the horses there were not well-behaved. A lot of the horses there were actually quite dangerous and it wasn't their fault. And I don't even blame the farm owners.
(17:40):
It was just a circumstantial thing that the person was really burnt out who was running the farm. And most of the people handling the horses were people like myself who knew nothing. And so the horses were constantly being really pushy, sometimes aggressive, not caring where our physical boundaries
were, because really they're just seeking a sense of safety and they're going, well, if you're not going to be a good leader for me or give me some sense of security, then you're just in my way and I'm going to
forget that you're even there by accident because I'm just trying to stay safe and other behaviors come through connected to that as well. So I ended up working with these horses and that was some of the best
education for me was to work with horses that I was really needing to kind of be in this trial by fire situation.
(18:28):
Not that I would recommend it, it is dangerous, but it was a really important part of my continued learning and strengthening of this muscle and that same muscle is what I'm talking about that turned up the volume on my true self and turn down the volume on everything else. Because working with these
horses, whether they're well-behaved or not, I think one of the gifts of the horses is that they are really responding to how in alignment we are, how embodied are we at that spiritual level as well as everything
else. And they're going to reflect that back to us in a bunch of different ways. But nonetheless, that's the through line of what they're always reflecting back. Are you really in a balanced state in yourself? Are
you really operating from a place in your heart? Are you also operating from a place of empowerment at the same time?
(19:26):
And it's like they were constantly fine tuning this muscle inside of me to go too much, not enough. Where are you? What was that? And it was intense enough for me at the time to really grab my focused attention
still coming out of a lot of different kinds of trauma, too complex trauma at home was a lot harder and is harder to work through than the one very traumatic moment of the school shooting. And I think that's true for a lot of people that the little patterns that we develop over time as small people, those are the ones that
can really get so deeply ingrained and need a lot of shifting and passionate support to move through. And the horses were doing that for me. So I kept working with them over that time, and it opened the door to
another opportunity where I was offered an apprenticeship as a farrier.
(20:25):
So I started working with horses and their hooves, which is really taking care of their medical needs, but from a very different lens that I never knew existed. I had only had a handful of times being exposed to horses as a kid. And it turns out that there's this job where you have to take care of horses, hooves, and
sometimes do hoof surgery on them and sometimes put shoes on them or trim them or take care of them for lots of reasons. And it's the profession that actually sees them the most frequently of any other professional in their lives. And there's such an importance of hoof care for horses. And that's what I ended
up learning how to do. So for the last 16 years, I've been taking care of horses, hooves. I've worked with thousands of horses this way, and they've all been my greatest teachers for how to be human, for how to
turn up that volume dial of my truest self and turn down the dial on all the other stuff that doesn't really matter. And
Speaker 1 (21:22):
That's kind of like where I wanted to take the conversation next anyway, because the planetary consciousness is evolving, and I believe all consciousness that's part of this planet, plants, animals, rocks. I know that sounds weird, but anything that has consciousness, which everything does is also evolving.
And so you've kind of started the conversation about how horses can help us heal and evolve and what do they have to teach us about being human?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I love that you're bringing evolution into this because we've really evolved with horses for thousands and thousands of years,
(22:13):
Whether it's in a colonizing way with people riding on their backs into war or whether it's many indigenous communities worldwide living and having these deep spiritual connected partnerships with
these horses as teachers, as healers, as partners for travel and movement. Yes, but much more than that.
So they've been really an evolutionary partner for us in so many ways throughout history. And I'm so glad that we're at a time where their role is continuing to expand and be seen as what I believe it's most important as really helping us evolve into better humans. And so one of the big things, the themes that I
see occur over and over for myself and all the people that I now work with because I've shifted from my farrier work a little quick fill in the gap here, is that about nine years ago, 10 years ago, almost still doing
my farrier work, but recognizing the deep transformations that were happening for me, for my relationships with humans.
(23:21):
And then I was all connecting it back to what I was learning with the horses. So I had to find a way to
become a facilitator of that kind of experience safely for people with horses and humans. And what I keep
seeing now with clients and that work and myself is that they invite us to embrace a lot of paradox. They invite us to embrace a very embodied approach to being strong and vulnerable at the same time, to be
powerful and gentle at the same time where they want us to take our mask off, take the armor off, but not in a way where we're weak, where we can really reframe a lot of what we might even define as weak, but
also actually feel stronger than maybe ever before. But in a way that is for the good of the herd, for the wellbeing of all, not just those who want to have a power over approach, but a very different kind of collective healthy, grounded power.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Now, I have a question because you just basically said now you work with horses in a therapeutic setting.
How does someone who works with horses in a therapeutic setting choose the horses that become a part of their program?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
I love this question so much because I think it can open the door to not only how we shift our thinking
about horses, but about ourselves as humans. So temperament and behavior in horses. Yes, for sure we want to have horse partners that are safe and well equipped for this work who are well suited for this
work. But I'll also say that we don't all start out that way and the horses very often don't either. And this is where I'm really grateful that I get to lean on all my horse experience in various forms to have been able
to support a lot of our herd members through their own traumatic healing,
(25:38):
Through their own growth cycles that they need to go through in a very meaningful way before they can work with people. In fact, one of the horses who was the most impactful with our clients, and she was
actually my first horse when she became part of my family, there's no way I would've put her with a client. She was labeled as dangerous. She was labeled as aggressive. In fact, the first time that I worked
with her in a loose area where I mean at liberty, so she was in a ring and she was about 200 feet away from me, and she had no fencing or she had no restraints, there was some fencing, but there was no
restraints on her. There was nothing to control her. She could really express herself fully. And I was warned not to go in there with her in that way.
(26:31):
This is before I took her on because she was known to have some very aggressive responses in that kind of situation. But I knew that's exactly how I needed to get to know her because that's where I was going to
really meet her true self, not the self that was worried about some kind of punishing device that was going to prevent her from that. And she charged me a 1500 pound huge horse, charged me at full speed, but I
knew it was a test to see if I could embody that paradox that I was talking about. Can I be strong enough to really hold my ground, but soft enough to really feel her and hold her with compassion at the same
time, not one and then the other, both together.
(27:18):
And it all turned out really well. I put up my hands and asked her to stop and breathed out and got really
calm and really grounded and did my best to access that place. That's the through line of this whole conversation. And she stopped and we just had this magical moment of connection and dancing together
at liberty. And although that was an amazing magical start to our relationship, there were many other moments that we had to work through many other moments of dysregulation and disharmony and
challenge. But we worked through them and she worked through them and she did so much of her healing that she ended up becoming the most rock solid therapy partner I could have ever imagined. And she was
like that for good reason, just like we are like that for good reason. So I'm saying all this because I never want to ride off a person, a horse, any being because their current behavior or way that they're presenting
themselves seems like it wouldn't fit our goal. Now it's not to say just to work with them so that they fit the goal, but that we shouldn't write anybody off. And sometimes it's more about an intuition or a knowing and making sure we're not rushing anything and leaving the door open to maybe this isn't going
to work, but I feel like it's worth a try. And that's pretty much the story of a lot of the herd members who we now work with in different ways and just shapes.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Well, just like people, everybody deserves a try.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
That's right. That's right. And that includes having very authentic responses when things are not going in a safe direction, they also deserve a try. That includes healthy boundaries and clarity and healthy expectations of what's okay and what's not okay to not just let ourselves be a doormat and we'll just keep
trying forever and get hurt in the process. That's not okay. But it actually gives the horses and people more safety with us when we can be very discerning about what's needed in the moment, whether it's that
energy that's a little bit stronger, whether it's the energy, it's a little bit softer, whatever that might be, but always holding that paradox inwardly of heart connection and grounded power, grounded strength. Both
are true. So long-winded answer to say, of course, we want to make sure that the horses we're working with or people who don't necessarily have horse experience, and even if they do are showing up in a vulnerable state themselves, that those horses are definitely well suited for the moment. Sometimes we
just have to help them become well suited and be very patient in order for them to get to the point where it's a good match. And sometimes horses do not want to do this work, and they're absolutely those horses out there too. Not every person wants to be a therapist. Not every horse wants to be a partner in someone's
healing journey in that kind of way. And that's okay, but I think a lot more actually do want it than we may expect.
(30:34):
And a lot of the behaviors we see of them not wanting to or because they don't feel safe themselves, they don't feel seen or heard at deep levels and maybe some of their physical health needs are not there. So if
we can actually meet their needs in a holistic way and support their own healing journey, a lot of horses, I believe would excel at this work.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Well, they have a great champion in you. You spoke a little earlier about how horses could mirror our
state of balance or imbalance and that a horse will, I believe that as well. A horse will tell us when we're out of balance. People talk about being empaths. I feel like horses are highly empathetic creatures, just
like their antenna are very sensitive, very refined, and that they can read a room pretty quick. So how can we interact with a horse to bring ourselves back into harmony with our own energy?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
I so agree with everything you said about them, first of all. And I think one of the best ways to learn from them to bring ourselves back into that harmonious place inside is to really believe what they're telling us.
And that includes in the most micro expressions all the way to big overt responses from them. And sometimes we need help to cipher what's going on if we don't have enough horse experience or
experience in this kind of transformative work to figure that out. So if you have a horse at home or if you have a friend with a horse that you're trying to learn from, there's no failure in going, I don't know what's going on. I need some external input here. That's okay. And as we get to learn and to what the horses are
telling us, really without labeling their behavior as bad or they're just not well-trained or they're crazy or they're being such an a-hole, all of that language that is very common around horses and people to take
away those labels and just go, okay, this is what's happening.
(33:05):
What could that mean if I really believed them? That they're expressing themselves from a place of
authenticity, not trying to be manipulative, not doing anything weird, just honestly saying something.
What are they saying? And then trying to take that in as some kind of learning moment. For example, if we go to touch a horse's neck and they kind of lean away from us, we can hear that as just no thanks, not right now. And we can take that to mean so many other things. We can create so many stories about that
when really they're just saying, I don't want to be touched there. I don't want to be touched right now. I don't want to be touched in this way. And that's it. They may not want to be near us. They may be if
they're hard to catch or if they're in a ring with us and they're loose and they're kind of ignoring us a little bit, and I'll put that in quotes because I don't think they're ever ignoring anything, but they're choosing to
be at a distance instead of going, oh my gosh, they don't like me.
(34:07):
Or, oh, I've done something wrong. Or, oh, they're being such a jerk. They don't want to come over.
They're not willing participant. We make so many stories up very often that are self-deprecating for ourselves or harmful to them. So if we took away that and just let it be kind of neutral and present with the fact that they want to be over there just to get curious of like, okay, they want to be over there, what
might that mean if I had no judgments about it, could that mean that it has nothing to do with me? That's possible. I can make space for that. Could it mean that I'm in a place inside of myself that is upset,
dysregulated, where I'm trying to suppress an emotion where I'm putting on a mask? Am I trying to force something? Am I coming from a place that's kind of insecure and going, I really, really, really want them to come over?
(34:57):
Why won't you come over? Please love me. Or am I coming from a place of they better come over or else
or some variation of that. So they're kind of inviting us to go, which end of the spectrum am I finding myself on? And if we can get really courageous and curious as far as where we might be on that spectrum, we can soften into the present moment. And it's amazing what happens when we soften into
that present moment and just allow ourselves to be where they go. Oh, there you are. There was all this clutter around you. There was all these layers of armor and fog and all these stories. But now that you're
here in this moment with me just showing up in your heart, I can see you. I can feel you more authentically. You feel more safe. They're sensing if we're hiding something, right?
(35:56):
So if we're suppressing an emotion, they're actually more comfortable. If we're just overtly upset, they're
like, okay, well, you're upset. Whether that's anger or whether that's sadness. I'm not talking about if it's directed at them, but sometimes we have some anger for whatever reason. And if I show up to that horse and in my head or out loud in my body, go, I'm feeling really angry and I know it's not about them and I
communicate, it's not about them. They might actually stand with me and go, I can hold space for that.
That's fair. But if I'm trying to push that down and go, no, everything's fine. They're like, Ooh, you don't feel safe because you're hiding something. And what is it? And am I at risk around you because you're not actually being in your authentic place.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Just stepping into the energy field of horse could be very enlightening.
This transcript was exported on Sep 10, 2024 - view latest version here.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
It can be.
(36:50):
And that's where it's so important to, if people are going to seek out some kind of equine work to do it at a
place where they feel very safe themselves, where the energy feels right for them, where there's none of
the judgments, there's not any sense of having to fit into any boxes where we can really feel a little bit of a
deeper breath of fresh air in the way that the people are also interacting with us, not just the horses. We
still may have a lot of anxiety about it. We still may be afraid of it, but there's also going to be part of us that knows if this is the right environment for us or not. And we might discover that as time goes on. And
I just really invite people to listen to that knowing because there are people and horses who would not be the right fit, whether it's because they shouldn't be doing the work at all, whether it's because they're just
not the right fit for you in that moment.
(37:42):
All of that is fair because the work can be so vulnerable. And so if we are having that fear factor come in of like, Ooh, this is so revealing, this is terrifying. To make sure that we have some kind of support in that
environment that we can lean on and even express that, and that's okay. It's okay to feel afraid of what
might come up. It's not a failure, it's not a fault. It's very human. And the places that understand it that are
really trying their best to learn from horses are going to make that completely normal and fine.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
This concludes part one of my two-part conversation with Carmen Theobald. Next time we'll discuss the many ways you can work with the intelligence of the horse to bring about healing and personal growth.
So that's our time for today. And to each one of you who continues to support our podcast, thank you. If you found value in this episode, please share it with two other people so that together we can bring more
light to this world. And now here's a quote for you to ponder as you go about your day. If you have gained the trust of a horse, you have won a friend for life.