Grief & Loss: It's Not Only About Death and Dying | Guest: Rev Christine V. Davies | Ep 129

Grief and loss are the topic today.

Host Julia Marie interviews Reverend Christine Vaughn Davies, a Presbyterian minister and spiritual director, about grief and loss.

Davies explains that grief is not only associated with death but can also be related to changes in relationships, material possessions, physical functions, social roles, and personal dreams.

She emphasizes the importance of acknowledging and naming these losses to understand and cope with the grief they cause.

Davies also discusses the physical toll of grief and suggests self-care strategies such as ensuring adequate sleep and nutrition.

She encourages people to seek out communities of support and to use spirituality as a tool for coping with grief.

Davies also advocates for advanced care planning to ease the burden on family members and caregivers in the event of a loved one's death.

RESOURCES:

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Rev Christine's Website
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Transcript

This transcript was generated by ai and there fore may contain some errors.

Julia Marie (00:00):
Today's subject, grief and Loss. If you're looking for advice on how to handle grief and loss, whether it's yours or someone else's, you'll want to stay with us. Welcome to Evolving Humans, the podcast for Awakening Souls. I'm your host, Julia Marie. Settle in and get ready for another spirited conversation.
The Reverend Christine Vaughn Davies is an ordained Presbyterian minister, seminary professor and a trained spiritual director. She runs the hospital chaplaincy department at Robert Wood Johnson University Hospital. She educates about grief loss and the importance of advanced care planning. Welcome to Evolving Humans. Christine, thank you for being here today.
Rev Christine V. Davies (01:06):
Thanks so much for having me. I'm delighted to be able to talk about these hard but important issues with you, and hopefully your audience can take something away from them.
Julia Marie (01:17):
Well, that's my hope as well. We're going to talk about loss and grief. First, I'd like to know how you were led to pursue your current vocation.
Rev Christine V. Davies (01:31):
Yeah, so I grew up as a precocious kid and attended our local Presbyterian church with my family. And from a young age, I was convinced of God's presence in my life and had what clergy folks may refer to as a calling, but this idea that God wanted me to help people. And so I was trying to figure out how can I help the most amount of people possible to fulfill this desire that had been planted into my heart. And I
thought it was going to be through medicine and becoming a physician. And my mother was a nurse, so I think she kind of pushed that dream along a little bit for me. And I actually worked as an EMT for a number of years, and it was in the backs of ambulances when I was providing safe transport to the hospital with patients where I would do the minor repair of the wounds and administering oxygen.
(02:28):
But what really meant a lot to me was sitting with the patients, sometimes holding their hands as they were suffering and asking why is this happening? Or just really bearing witness to what they were going through. And then I wound up going through my own health issues as I became a patient and was in and out of hospitals and became rather dismayed with the bedside manner of some of the medical team I was
interacting with. I did ultimately have a diagnosis of, and now it's very well managed and under control, but it took a little bit of time to get there. And it was around that time that the church that my family had been going to had a new associate pastor and she'd just come from seminary and she took me out to dinner and just talked with me about how this diagnosis was impacting me emotionally and spiritually.
And looking back, I recognized, oh, she was giving me spiritual care and that's what I do now for others and teach others how to do that and how to be in that space with people who are going through intense health crises or grief or loss or other aspects of their life and the ways in which all of that can be integrated. So that's what led me into seminary and back into the hospitals in a different realm in chaplaincy.
Julia Marie (03:50):
And I always say that if we look back in our lives, we can see clues that are left behind that, oh, I was being led to where I am today and the way in which I am in service in the world. So it just sounds to me from that story, the breadcrumbs are pretty well laid out.
Rev Christine V. Davies (04:13):
It takes some years and some introspection to get there. I certainly didn't know any of these things as I was going through it. And the clinical term that we use for that is existential meaning making. How are we making meaning of the events of our lives? And a lot of the people that I am sitting with are trying to do that in the moment of crisis, which is pretty much impossible to do when you're going through
something, but it's that time that allows you to reflect back and see how events have worked together in some way to bring you where you currently are.
Julia Marie (04:48):
Well, and it sounds to me like that kind of introspection and retrospection could actually be beneficial to all of us as far as making meaning of our life, the life that we're living.
Rev Christine V. Davies (05:02):
Absolutely. And I'm a believer that we all have a purpose whether or not we call it a calling as the religious types might, but that we all have something that we uniquely can offer this world and whatever that is, for some people it might be a job. For others, it's being a part of a family or volunteering or tending to a garden. We all have things that drive us and that we were talking a little bit about legacy before that we can imprint on the world and really make the world better for it.
Julia Marie (05:40):
Thank you for saying that because a lot of times what I hear is, well, I can't be fulfilling my purpose. I just go to work every day or raise my kids or take the kids to their appointments. And I try and explain to people, but that is purpose. Absolutely. And all of that has value.
Rev Christine V. Davies (05:59):
And sometimes I think we get overwhelmed when we try to look at it from the large lifelong perspective.
So sometimes I invite people to look at it just day by day, what is your ultimate purpose for today? Or what is your calling today? What is the most important thing that you're doing in this day? And some days it may be taking my kids to the doctor, ensuring that their physical health is doing well. And so sometimes breaking it into those bite-sized pieces can help people identify what is it that I value and what is my contribution?
Julia Marie (06:38):
That's a good takeaway that I'm going to use in my own life. So thank you very much for that. Now we're talking about loss today and coping with loss of any kind can be difficult for, in my opinion, everybody.
What are the different types of loss that someone might experience?
Rev Christine V. Davies (07:01):
That's a great question because there are so many different types of loss, and I think as a society we associate loss with death. And that is certainly one of the types, and we can talk about that, but there are so many others. I'm actually a big believer in the fact that we are all grieving something at any moment in time because loss is all around us. Anytime there's change essentially in our lives, even a good change, there is loss that is accompanying it. So for example, I used to officiate a lot of weddings and I was at a
rehearsal dinner and the bride's mother was crying and I thought, oh no, does she not like the groom?
What's going on here? So I took her aside and said, how you doing? What's going on? And she said, oh, well, I'm happy. I just realized that I'm no longer going to be her emergency contact.
(07:54):
Even in a happy state, there is change and there is loss, and we have to grieve some of these losses. And when we don't recognize them as losses, I think that's when we can internalize them or think, oh, there's something wrong with us. Why am I not fully happy? We see this lot around people who are retiring and what that brings up for them. So a few different types of losses. One is relationship loss, and that's
probably the most common because that's, I think the loss that would categorize death certainly falls into that category. But it's not only death, right? It's moving away and not being close to your neighbors who you're friends with. It's changing a job and missing those coworkers. It can even include a romantic breakup or a friendship that fizzles out even if you decided that is not a relationship that you want to continue, maybe it wasn't the healthiest.
(08:48):
There's still going to be some loss there. And then some grief. Another type that is very common, and it's usually the first loss that we experience is material loss. So think of when you might lose your beloved teddy bear or blankie early on. It's the loss of a physical object or familiar surrounding to which one has an important attachment. And that's really about the attachment that we have to the loss. So for example,
if I have earrings that I bought from Target that cost me $10 and I lose them, it's not that big of a deal. In fact, that's what happens to me a lot. But if I have earrings that my grandmother gave me on her death bed that are family heirloom and I lose one, I'm going to be a lot more upset. So a lot of it is about what is the
value that we're putting on that material object and how it's impacting us.
(09:44):
Another type is functional loss. And so I see a lot of this in the hospital because that is defined as the loss of some muscular or neurological functions of the body. So even if it is a temporary thing, it is still significant. We saw this, people were surprised during Covid, which is a whole other type of loss we can get into, but when they lost their sense of smell, people were distraught over that and they were surprised.
They're like, I never thought about my sense of smell before. But that is an example of functional loss.
Even if it does come back, it still impacts you for that time. Another type is role loss, which is the loss of a specific social role or a custom place in one social network. So that might be the retiree that who am I if I'm not my job, especially in a society where we place such importance on what someone does for a living
or how someone makes money or I've certainly talked with people that's empty nesters as parents are like, well, I'm still a parent, but it's different now.
(10:55):
And not having that same day-to-Day role, systemic loss is a loss that occurs in a whole interactional system. Something like Covid is a systemic loss. We were all going through that globally together. It's going to impact people in different ways, of course, but the fact that we're all experiencing it at the same time. So that's the most recent example of it. But even if people think smaller, I see this a lot in congregations that I might be working with in churches in synagogues or mosques when a patriarch or
matriarch of the congregation maybe dies, that's going to be relationship loss and then systemic loss, how it impacts everything. And so a lot of these losses you may have been able to pick up on will overlap at times as well, and that's what can make it extra persnickety, really trying to identify what they are.
(11:55):
And then the last type of loss is, I think the hardest to describe. It's called intrapsychic loss. And I like to tell people, if you're feeling a loss and you can't figure out which of the other categories it fits into, it's probably intrapsychic. And it's the experience of losing an emotionally important image of oneself, losing the possibilities of what might have been really like the dying of a dream or the abandonment of a
particular future. And what makes this one hard is that it's usually an inward experience. It's not something that people generally know about the same way that they might know if someone were to die, so to speak. So some examples, it could be as simple as someone not getting the job that they wanted or the promotion that they had the heart set on. We see this loss a lot with miscarriages, so it's not necessarily a relationship loss in that, although some people could categorize it as that, but it's really, you had hoped for this child and it didn't come to pass.
(13:05):
We see this loss around things like infidelity or betrayal would bring about this loss because that is not how you anticipated your life to go. And it can be around positive things too. So sometimes it's talked with athletes who did a big race and then afterwards felt like this funkiness afterward because they had reached the pinnacle and now what? And so it really can be hard to pinpoint, but I believe in the
importance of naming our losses because that can help us to really understand what's going on with us and help us to know that it's grief.
Julia Marie (13:48):
Well, one of the things that I would probably say for sure is ignoring it, whatever the loss is, ignoring it doesn't make it better. There's something there that needs to be processed. What are some of the strategies that a person might employ to help cope with the loss? And can I use these strategies for any type of loss?
Rev Christine V. Davies (14:15):
Yeah, it's a great question. And what makes it difficult is I'll give some examples. And for some people, some things will work and other things won't work because it can sometimes be unique to the individual's experience. So know that you have permission to do or to try any of these things. And if they don't work from you, try a different thing. I think what surprises people as well is sometimes talking to someone and
they're like, well, when my mother died, I was able to cry about it, and that helped and I went to a support group and that was great. But now that I'm going through this loss of my job, it feels harder in some ways than the other one because it was more socially acceptable to be grieving the death of my parent than it's to be grieving the fact that I lost this job.
(15:02):
And so griefs can impact us in different ways. So I always start with, you have the right to use your spirituality if that is helpful to you or to not use it. And a lot of what I wind up teaching and talking and working with people about is there can be a lot of religious trauma as it relates to loss. People say some really not helpful things that can be spiritually wounding. I have a whole list of religious platitudes that I
think people say that are just toxic. It's like this toxic positivity, movement, meeting, spirituality and religion. I would say you have the right to not listen to people that are telling you these things because sometimes it's their own silencing of what you're going through. And so really trying to make room for what you are going through, especially when society sometimes wants people to move on quickly because they don't know what to do with it.
(16:05):
So I think naming and claiming your feelings as it's relating to some of your losses. A lot of individuals I work with, especially around death, are surprised sometimes by the myriad of emotions that can come up on any given day. Many of us are familiar with Elizabeth Kubler Ross's stages of Grief. There's plenty individuals that believe that that is maybe not the case anymore. So I'm of that camp, but there's others
that are purists about it because we might not go through every stage and it's not linear. It's not this progression of denial and bargaining and acceptance and anger and all these things. It's a lot messier than that, and someone can feel sad one moment and angry the next and joy a little bit later. And I think that that confuses people and they're very much surprised by it. Sometimes I have individuals who are in the
midst of grieving whatever it may be, and they feel bad when they have some joy or some happiness.
(17:13):
It's almost like having guilt like, oh, how can I laugh at this joke that someone told me when I'm going through all of this? But I think that is a healthy coping mechanism to be able to get through it. Another dynamic that comes up for people sometimes is relief. I see this in the hospital when patients have been suffering with chronic illness and in a lot of pain, the family sometimes feels guilty when they tell me
like, I'm relieved. I said, of course you are. Your loved one had been suffering and you've been holding  vigil for such a long time. So really making space for normalizing all of the emotions I think is another step. Something else I would recommend, and again, some people this may benefit, some people might work a little differently, but trying to seek out a community of people that understand what you're going
through and with so many resources online that may be more readily available than it was several years ago. So those are just a few. I don't want to overwhelm you too much, but hopefully that can give us a good start.
Julia Marie (18:19):
No, again, helpful suggestions and a variety from which people can choose. Just a side note on Elizabeth Kubler Ross, the benefit of the book, I believe, is the fact that it shows the different ways you can feel. I agree with you that it's totally, grief is a non-linear experience.
Rev Christine V. Davies (18:41):
And she even said later in her life, I didn't mean for people to think it was the stage theory, I was really just trying to normalize it. So yes, I agree with you. It has helped us have these conversations in a way that it hadn't before, and that's another resource. So sometimes people may want to seek out readings around this. And so her books, there's so many grief books. I have a newsletter if anyone's interested in
that where I talk about some of these things. But sometimes it's helpful for people to see others' experience in writing to help them not feel alone in it.
Julia Marie (19:16):
What do you wish people knew about grief?
Rev Christine V. Davies (19:18):
I think that it's ever present and that we are all going through it and we may not recognize it. And so really, and that's what I train a lot of my chaplaincy students, my interns and residents to do, is to be detectives for that loss. So even as your listeners are thinking, oh, nothing major has happened to me for a couple years, and that's great, there's little losses that can accumulate and have an impact. So I think
wanting people to know that it's there and then also to normalize it and to normalize these conversations, especially around relationship loss and death loss. I certainly am talking about those all the time. And a lot of us I think will sometimes be in denial about some of that and then get taken by surprise versus anticipating it at times.
Julia Marie (20:14):
Often when someone we know experiences the loss, particularly of a loved one, we don't know what to say or do. And as you hinted at earlier, some things aren't the best things to be saying. Do you have some tip for those of us who want to be helpful and not cause unintended harm?
Rev Christine V. Davies (20:38):
Absolutely. So yes, we sometimes well-meaning we will say things that can cause harm. So these are some of the phrases I would caution you to avoid using. I said before I knew all of these things, so I'm guilty of it as well. Things like God doesn't need another angel. Everything happens for a reason. It's all part of God's plan. Just have faith. There's a lot that fall into that category. And while they may be true for you and very helpful for your own life, or I'll use myself as an example, while I might believe that everything happened for a reason, like we talked about before, I can look back and say, okay, this epilepsy diagnosis, it helped me to do this. And that took years of meaning making. And I had people say to me in the moment when I was going through it, oh, God's trying to tell you to slow down or do all these different things.
(21:35):
And that was not helpful because it robs me of the opportunity to make meaning for myself. And it's taking someone else's spiritual interpretation of events and putting it on me. And especially if we're of different faith traditions or no faith tradition, that is going to be quite wounding. So I really try to caution, especially clergy, not to say some of these things again, I think we don't recognize that it can do harm. So what do we do instead? The best thing I think is to show up and shut up, which can be very hard. But the showing up is being present and trusting that you're presence says a lot. Your presence can be powerful.
Oftentimes there's no words that are going to make it better, but you being there and being with someone when they're in that pain and bearing witness with them and helping them in that way can be very powerful and really engaging in that silence is something else that is hard to do because we want to fill the silence.
(22:47):
This is where that going inward can help us to be able to sit in that silence longer, but it can be powerful.
And sometimes it's about letting the individual lead. So I don't if any of your listeners are involved or know of Jewish customs, but in the sitting Shiva after a funeral, the idea is you wait for the family to speak. They are the first ones to break the silence. And I love that as a concept because it means it's not me as the one wanting to help who may have my own anxieties that is filling that void with things that
may or may not be helpful according to the individual's need. Other things that I recommend, I know it's hard to not say anything at all. So other things that I say is, or I recommend saying if you want to say something, is saying something like, I have no words to make it better, or I wish that I could make it better.
(23:49):
Really making it explicit that you're not going to offer these empty phrases and try to make things better when you can't. Acknowledging that you can't fix it. It could be something simple depending on your audience, but when people have sat with me before, they've just said, oh, this sucks, or This is awful, or whatever kind of variation you want to put on it. But just naming the terribleness of the situation can be
empowering, asking people how are you really feeling? And then waiting and listening for the answer and allowing them to not get away with saying fine, because no one's ever feeling fine in that encounter. But recognizing that whatever they are feeling is going to be valid in that moment and really saying, I'm here with you in it. And then doing promising to being here with them. Another piece of advice that I offer for
individuals who want to support someone who's going through something, sometimes being more specific can be helpful.
(24:54):
I know it's commonplace to say, text a friend and say, let me know what you need, which the intent is great, you want to help. But often for those of us that are in the throes of crisis, we don't know what we need. And for me to even think about what I need and then ask for it is a lot. So it's depending, again, this is going to depend on your relationship with the individual, but I might text my friend and say, okay, I'm
going to the grocery store. I'm going to pick you up ice cream dinner, or I can walk your dog or I can mow your lawn. Which of these things would be helpful for you? And they may say, ice cream, or they may say, oh, if you can mow my lawn, I'm good on groceries. Or they may say none of the above, but can you take my kids for an hour so I can deal with the lawyers or do whatever else they need to do?
(25:47):
So giving some practical help that the individual can ask for. And then also if you are going to do things like drop off a casserole, which my church is great, I had surgery, I had casserole for days not staying around just saying, I'm leaving it on your porch. Because everyone's tolerance for what they're going to need in that moment is going to be different. And sometimes people, like I said, don't know what it is that
they're going to need. And then the last piece of advice I would recommend, especially around someone who is grieving a death is not to fall away a month or so afterwards. So what we tend to see, and I talk to a lot of people who see this from their congregational perspectives, is there's a big rush at the beginning of support when someone is going through something tragic, but then a while after that kind of the flurry
of activity dies down a little bit. And so checking in with people a couple weeks, a couple months later, I know some clergy that makes sure that they have the anniversary dates and make sure that they check in with someone three months after they've lost a loved one or six months or a year. So knowing that that might be the time where they need more of that emotional support than at the very beginning.
Julia Marie (27:10):
If I'm the one who's grieving, what can I do to help myself cope?
Rev Christine V. Davies (27:17):
One of the things that is surprising to people is just how physical grief can be and the toll that it can take physically, not even talking about emotionally and spiritually and all of that. So I think one of the things is being aware of what you need from a physical perspective. So some people are going to need to do something to help relieve, and we see this with stress in general, right? Some people, if they've had a
rough day, they need to go for a walk or they need to do something physical or tactile to really cope with that. So I would say that that might, for some people that might be helpful. For others, they may be sleeping more or sleeping less. And so really focusing on what are your baseline needs? When we think about the Maslow's hierarchy, what do you need to get through the day? And so it may be things like
making sure that I'm sleeping enough, making sure that I'm eating adequately, even if I have no appetite for it, focusing on the basics of our self-care. So that would be the first thing that I would recommend.
There's going to be times when you're going through it where you are just getting through the day, especially in the midst of crisis or in the early stages of loss.
Julia Marie (28:42):
I know more than one person who's experienced a spiritual awakening as the result, the loss of a loved one. In what other ways can grief be a catalyst for spiritual growth?
Rev Christine V. Davies (28:57):
I've seen it happen for people in different ways in different timelines. Not too long ago, I was with a patient who had lost their loved one a couple of years prior, and he was in for just a very routine procedure. But being in the hospital, you have a lot of time to think about these things. And the last time he was in the hospital, he was saying goodbye to his brother, and he told me, it made him realize, life is short. I need to do more of the things that I want to be doing. And he left the job that he was doing. He
was starting his own business, he was trying to travel more, and it really caused him to take stock of his life and say, is this how I want to be living? And his brother's death was sudden and he said, if I died tomorrow, this is not how I would've wanted to have spent the last week of my life.
(29:57):
So I think for some people it can be really clarifying of values and what you're wanting out of life. So that I think is one way certainly that a spiritual awakening can happen, that it really shifts focus on what is important. And then something else that has happened more often than I think people talk about. And so I say it on here to normalize it for folks, is I have had a number of people that I've worked with who have
heard from their loved ones, and they're always surprised by it. And you're not surprised by this. I know that. And just have wound that to be so comforting. And we can talk about all the various ways that they may have heard from their loved ones. But the point is that like, oh, there is a connection here beyond
anything that I realized could happen before. And so that has led people to get more in touch with, okay, what is it that I believe about life and death and kind of the thin veil that can separate it? And for some people, that leads people into a examination and exploration of their own spirituality.
Julia Marie (31:06):
And I always say connecting with your loved ones through someone like me who's a medium is never a substitute for counseling or any of the other things we've talked about today. But it can be a wonderful opening of a door to the possibility of that continued connection. And so since you mentioned it, what are
some of the ways that you've heard about people hearing from their loved ones? I'm just curious personally.
Rev Christine V. Davies (31:33):
Yeah. So dreams are a big one that I hear a lot of people talk about their loved one visiting them in dreams. And so my question is always like, okay, was this comforting or was it not? Was it something that you were wanting or was it scary? And usually for most people they say, no, no, no. It was really comforting. I've also heard the opposite where people wished that they could hear from their loved one and have been upset that they've not been able to. I hear a lot of it from interpretation of signs is how I
would describe it, particularly if there was a certain bird or a certain flower or a certain song that their loved one liked, and then all of a sudden they're hearing it or seeing it or experiencing it all over the place.
And that usually, again, is a source of solace for a lot of people. And to what you said, yes, I think healing can take so many different forms and fashions, and I would encourage any of your listeners that are going through any brief to seek out all manner of healing. So I work as a spiritual director and I work individually with people in my own private practice. I usually say therapy is also great. What are you doing for your physical health?
Julia Marie (32:49):
When we are deep in grief, our vibration is actually lower and we are more inside of ourselves. And so sometimes it can take a while for that to lift in order for that connection to be made. So don't despair because trust and believe they are trying to connect with you and let you know that they're still around.
What's the most important thing you want the listeners to know about grief and the grieving process?
Rev Christine V. Davies (33:21):
I think that we're all going through it and we can support one another in it, and that spirituality can be a tool to also help you through it and with it. And I like to tell people, we don't ever move on from grief.
We don't ever get over it, but we move with it and it changes us. And to your point before, sometimes the change is profound and it's hard to believe that it could be for the better, but it can certainly shape our lives and something that we should be talking about more often.
Julia Marie (33:57):
Well, as part of this whole subject matter area, I'm kind of backing it up a little bit here. Sometimes the passing of a loved one brings added stress due to a lack of preparation on that person's part. Is there any planning we can do that can help to make our transitions easier on our family members and the caregivers around us?
Rev Christine V. Davies (34:21):
Yes, I am a huge proponent of advanced care planning from a medical perspective. There's certainly a state and legal and financial planning that you can do as well, and I certainly recommend that I can always speak to it from the healthcare perspective because as a chaplain, I am frequently with families, usually in the ICU who are struggling to make decisions about what their loved one would want and that
it can be added guilt if they don't know or if they feel like, oh, we're doing this to mom and we don't know what you would want. So I encourage everyone to fill out an advanced directive. It's going to be different in whatever state you're in, whatever state you're in. I would just recommend Googling a healthcare advance directive. There's typically two parts to it. The first part is called a healthcare proxy, or
sometimes you hear it as healthcare agent, but that is designating someone who can make decisions in the event that you cannot say what you would want for yourself.
(35:28):
So if you get into an accident and you are in a coma and they're trying to figure out, would they want this surgery, would they want this procedure? Or if I have multiple organs failing, am I going to want to continue to be on a ventilator? I suggest picking someone and naming someone who is going to be your healthcare proxy, and then have conversations with that individual about what you would want so that
they are prepared. And you can put all of those things in writing as well. That's the second half of the advanced directive sometimes called the living will or instructive for living wills. But the important thing is really that conversation, naming someone and having that conversation about what you would want. So that is my ask for everyone to look into those things.
Julia Marie (36:17):
Is there anything I didn't ask you about that you wish I had?
Rev Christine V. Davies (36:23):
No, I think this was a lovely conversation. I'm hoping it will be helpful to your listeners to normalize what they might be going through and to give them some tips and tricks.
Julia Marie (36:33):
Thank you for every little bit of it.
Rev Christine V. Davies (36:36):
Thank you. You asked wonderful questions, and I'm glad that you're thinking through these things and helping others to do the same.
Julia Marie (36:43):
What's your final message that you'd like to leave for the Evolving Humans community?
Rev Christine V. Davies (36:48):
In my tradition, we do benedictions at the end of a worship service, and so my benediction would be, whatever your term for God is, you can sub it in or the divine or the transcendence, but may God bless you and keep you and shine upon you and give you a sense of peace.
Julia Marie (37:09):
The Catholics have that one too.
Rev Christine V. Davies (37:11):
You'll notice I've changed the pronouns a little bit,
 Julia Marie (37:15):
And that's okay. Now, before we close, how can the people connect with you and what assistance do you offer there?
Rev Christine V. Davies (37:25):
Sure. So people can locate me on my website. It is christine v davies.com, and on there you'll have all my links for social media if you want to follow me on any of those. I do have that weekly newsletter, and if individuals are wanting to work with the spiritual director, I have information about becoming a client on there as well.
Julia Marie (37:50):
Thank you so much again for your beautiful presence and the gifts of your wisdom.
Rev Christine V. Davies (37:57):
Oh, thank you. It was such a joy to talk with you today.
Julia Marie (38:01):
Well, that's our time for today. I'm grateful to each and every one of you for continuing to support this podcast with your subscriptions and your shares. If you enjoy this podcast, please share the link with someone in your circle who would also benefit from it. And now, here's a quote for you to ponder as you go about your day. Grieving is a necessary passage and a difficult transition to finally letting go of sorrow. It is not a permanent rest stop.